Le Anne's CNN Moment (2004)

Greetings everyone, I was looking through old files this morning and came across this transcript from the 2004 interview during the Abu Ghraib crisis. It did bring back quite a few memories. I never did get to see the video itself. The other folks they interviewed, particularly the psychologist, are fascinating. Anyway, here's a bit, and the full text is permalinked here: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0405/10/asb.00.html

CNN NEWSNIGHT AARON BROWN
Bush Backs Rumsfeld; What Is on Still Unreleased Abu Ghraib Photos, Video?; Interview With Janis Karpinski
Aired May 10, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[...]
From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.(COMMERCIAL BREAK)BROWN: The reality of the prison abuse story is that without the pictures there really would be little story, at least not the sort that would dominate the news for more than a week and counting.The military announced in January that an investigation was underway and, while it was reported here and reporters were working on it, the story didn't really stick. Tonight more evidence that without the pictures there would be little fuss. The Red Cross has been complaining about serious and systemic abuse at the prison since the beginning.Here's CNN's Ben Wedeman.(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soon after U.S. forces reopened Abu Ghraib Prison last summer, Iraqis began to claim abuse of detainees was common. The Red Cross, Amnesty International, local Iraqi human rights groups and activists urged the coalition to investigate those claims.Last month, Abdel Basset al-Turki resigned in frustration from his post as Iraq's Human Rights Minister. He tells of meetings with senior coalition officials, including Chief Administrator Paul Bremer, during which he raised concerns over torture and abuse in American-run prisons in Iraq. The response, "I believe it was indifference combined with disregard" he told me. "Coalition officials were much more interested in documenting human rights violations under Saddam than in what has happened since" he says. Leanne Clausen of Christian Peacemakers tried working with the coalition to ensure proper treatment of prisoners.

LEANNE CLAUSEN, CHRISTIAN PEACEMAKERS: Coalition officials on the whole they were very cordial but they were generally not helpful. They either said that there really was not a problem within the system, that they were following all the Geneva Conventions that they felt obliged to follow.WEDEMAN: A confidential report from the Red Cross, leaked to "The Wall Street Journal" indicate the group's concerns over mistreatment go back more than a year and aren't limited to Abu Ghraib.

NADA DOUMANI, INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS: The abuses at Abu Ghraib were not individual cases. Unfortunately, this looks more like it was a pattern and it has been occurring in other places too.WEDEMAN: Coalition spokesmen insist they were listening all along.DAN SENIOR, COALITION SPOKESMAN: But I can tell you when these complaints were raised and we looked closely at them, we pursued improvement of the situation, correction of any problems. This is something that's been going on that everyone has been involved with for a number of months.

WEDEMAN: Scant satisfaction for those who wait every day outside Abu Ghraib in the heat and dust for news of those inside or for detainees pictured in those now infamous photos.(on camera): The consensus among human rights activists is that the U.S.-led coalition was unwilling to take their concern seriously until those photos emerged from behind these walls. And now with the abuse scandal snowballing they can only say we told you so.Ben Wedeman, CNN, outside Abu Ghraib Prison.

(END VIDEOTAPE)BROWN: Back now to an aspect of the story that we've all had a hard time reconciling over the past couple of weeks. How do people who seem just like anybody else do what the pictures show them doing and, if they were ordered to do what they did, what made it so hard for them to say no?Reports are only two refused. Of all the people who were at the prison only two said no. Nearly 33 years ago, Philip Zimbardo and his colleagues at Stanford University conducted an experiment that at the very least has an eerie resonance with the news of today.The professor is recent past president of the American Psychological Association. He's been a professor at Stanford sine 1968 and we are delighted to have him with us tonight. Basically, I want to try and shorthand this. You set up a prison and you had some students as guards and some students as prisoners and in very short order you learned what?

PHILIP ZIMBARDO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, we had set up a prison to run for two weeks and I had to terminate it after six days because it was out of control. What's really critical and I think the parallel with the Iraqi prison is that we knew that going into the prison our situation, we had selected boys who were normal and healthy in every way and we randomly assigned them to be prisoners and guards and we put them in so we had good apples to begin with.We put them in this bad barrel of prison and what came out were corrupted young men. In our prison the parallels were our guards stripped the prisoners naked, put bags over their heads, exactly as in Abu Ghraib, enforced sleep deprivation. These are things the guards thought of on their own, had them clean toilet bowls out with the bare hands and it was a gradual process. Each day it got worse and worse, so each day was a platform on which they built the creative evil of new things to do the next day.

BROWN: Just a couple of quick question on what you've said so far. But basically what you conclude is that it is not the character of the individual, these people may all be of wonderful character but the situation itself they are in that determines their behavior?ZIMBARDO: Absolutely. That is the whole purpose of our study was to demonstrate how powerful situational forces can be sometimes to overwhelm the best and the brightest, to overwhelm personality when you're in a novel situation that you have a variety of social factors operating.What was unique about our study we knew exactly what the subjects were like before they went in because we gave them a personality test. We interviewed them. They had no negative background characteristics because we eliminated that and what came out was at the end our guards were forcing the prisoners to engage in simulated sodomy, exactly as in this prison.

BROWN: That's unbelievable.ZIMBARDO: And these are college students doing it to other college students.BROWN: Is it necessary that, I guess it's not based on the study, that the guards see the prisoners as less than human or that they are dehumanized in some way?ZIMBARDO: That happens automatically, yes. You can't do this if you see these as college students. You have to see it as dangerous prisoners. In fact, in our prison the guards didn't allow the prisoners to bathe, so they smelled badly.BROWN: Yes. ZIMBARDO: They didn't allow them to go to the toilet. They had buckets in their cells so they urinated, defecated in this so the whole place smelled terrible and the guards began to think of the prisoners as animals, exactly as in the Iraqi prison where some of the guards reputedly said look at these animals. Look at the terrible things they're doing.

BROWN: Just one more quick question, is it, does it have to be a group? Does the fact that there is a group at play help determine the behavior?ZIMBARDO: Yes. It very rarely happens when it's an individual. Where you have a group, you have group camaraderie. You have new group norms about -- that determine what is acceptable, what is appropriate and then the group puts pressure on one another.You also typically have one or two people who lead the way. We call that social modeling. They're going to display, you know, the kinds of things that are now acceptable in that situation.The other thing that happened in the Iraqi situation is you have a veil of secrecy, which actually cloaks all prisons, so nobody knows on the outside what's happening. Once the people inside know that they know they can get away with anything, including "getting away with murder" because there's no accountability.

BROWN: Professor, it was fascinating 33 years ago. It remains fascinating today. Thank you, sir. It's good to talk to you.ZIMBARDO: Thank you and I hope the message gets carried to the public.BROWN: It just did. Thank you, sir, very much.ZIMBARDO: You're welcome.BROWN: Coming up tonight on the program something we've heard a lot from viewers, why show these pictures at all? Jonah Goldberg joins us to talk about that.And next the power of pictures down through the years, we'll take a break first.This is NEWSNIGHT.(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

irreverent daydreams while sitting in chapel

Irreverent Thoughts while sitting in Chapel
September 9, 2004

Hi everyone,We have Chapel here five times a week, I think. (If I show uptomorrow and there isn't one, well, I guess I'll go back to bed).The understanding so far is that Chapel isn't required, but neitheris it optional. Hmmm... But it has on the whole been quiteworthwhile, and really I do try to pay attention and not let my mindwander. (Luther wrote about that, I learned this week. He said youcan't help it, but that doesn't mean you should stop goingaltogether, or something like that, I think).The other day I noticed the shoes of the seniors who were leadingworship. I notice what pastors wear on their feet often, and havedone so ever since Jack forgot he was wearing bright orange skisocks, which showed up nicely from the pulpit. That was eight yearsago. Anyway, this girl was wearing three-inch strappy heels underher robe. I am not sure whether this was to help her see up overthe pulpit, or to keep her from tripping on the hem of her robe. Ipersonally have not yet worn a robe without tripping over the hem,no matter what I do. Often while carrying the processional cross.If any of you were at Trinity when I was 11, 12, or 13 years old andheard a metallic 'ka-chunk' punctuate the opening hymn on thoseoccasions, that was me, tripping over the hem of my robe andsimultaneously smacking the cross into the top of the doorway.Sorry about the dents.So, I wondered, was that her robe or a stock one from the closet?It actually seemed to fit her. But the other guy's robe only came tohis knees it looked like. Is there a day when we get robes aroundhere? Does it come free with your seminary education? Or is thatordination? Is there a class on how not to trip, or at least how tohem? Does the Altar Guild have a seamstress on call for thesesituations? Why don't they cover these important questions duringorientation?Speaking of things they didn't cover in orientation, what aboutgenuflection? Everybody else crosses themselves during chapel. Thenthere's times when they don't. But by that time I am just catchingon to doing and then I'm the only one. What did I miss? I do tryto show up on time...I told my roommate I watched pastors' feet a lot and she said shedid also, and recounted several interesting cases. (Men with hairylegs, please do not ever wear shorts. It just isn't right). Anyway,Ah. I am not wierd. Actually, I think all of us here at theseminary are getting the affirmation that we are not wierd. Or atleast that we are all wierd together. It seems really necessary bythe time you get here. I remember the guy in college who wrote anote to a friend which I later saw, which said, "There's this cutegirl here but she wants to be a missionary or something, and that'sjust too wierd." Well, at least he thought I was cute. He would'vebeen no good for me anyway, so there.Yesterday we all went to buy books. They were having a party in thebookstore with a 25% discount on all texts. It was wall to wallpeople. That was not so good. There was abundant food, and evenwine and cheese. That was good. We needed it while we stood inline. One of the admissions counselors came down to hang out. Thatwas good too. By the time we'd all stood in line for half and hourand hadn't moved three feet, we needed him to remind us why wesigned up to come to seminary in the first place. I found Icouldn't squeeze between the other people in the bookshelves and getto what I still needed with my backpack on, so I took it off and setit under a table. No one minded, so Aha! I dumped my stack of booksunder there too and just waited until I was almost at the front toretrieve them again. Hands-free, and all the better to eat browniesand taco dip with, my dear. And my mood was much lighter thaneveryone who was still loaded down. I also plied the girl who heldmy place in line with plenty of that free wine, so she wasn'tbitter.I think I'm going to like worship class. Dina warned me about thisclass, and Dr. Bangert warned us all again on the first day that hisclass had a reputation for being strenuous. We have to chant (but Ilike chanting); we have to memorize all the liturgies in all thehymnals and get videotaped doing them. In fact, we memorize themall and on test day, we show up and he'll tell us which one he wantsus each as an individual to run through an entire service for, onsaid tape. Complete with hand motions. No offering collectionallowed, though. (Geez..) That test is just before ThanksgivingBreak. Trinity friends, take note: I'll be in fine form thatweekend if you need help, or if testing goes badly I guess I'll needa hug.I asked if we could practice giving funerals for all the finches whohave hit our new windows (sniffle--adding in yesterday's windstormand a carnivorous crow who snapped one up in front of me as I washeaded to Chapel, it really was genocide. When is the class wherewe learn why God didn't make crows vegetarian? Cruel world). Hedidn't laugh, but he didn't excommunicate me either so I guess thatis good. Oh, and he was going to see about getting some paper birdcutouts to stick in the windows to keep the birds from smacking intothem, so the conversation was not in vain. We also learned a littleabout exorcisms yesterday ("The ones featured in the old movie arejust the extreme form") and the Collect--which we now call Prayer ofthe Day. It's a formula prayer which can be extremely useful whendoing hospital bedside ministry, we learned. In fact, if we use theformula, he said, it will make us sound a lot less like a bumblingidiot. Ah. Guess I'll study that.Bangert said, "There are still some churches out there who primarilyuse the LBW and With One Voice hymnals."Some?Anyway, we have six volumes of 'Renewing Worship' to read throughthis term. And 'Sundays and Seasons,' which looks to me a littlelike a Lutheran 'Dial-A-Prayer' book. Not that that's bad. WeLutherans are not terribly creative folks, especially in the middleof winter.And a WOV and the LBW Minister's Desk Edition. If LBW is obsolete,why didn't we get a discount on the book? Amazon said it was out ofprint. Have any of my pastor friends got an extra on their shelf,gathering dust? I can still return mine to the bookstore in thenext two weeks. How about an Anchor Bible Dictionary?I've noticed that something is causing us to develop dark green'crop circles' on our school courtyard. But I have to wait untillater to write on that one. It's closing time in the computer lab.Good night!

Head swimming in seminary

Hi everyone,Well, orientation week is almost over and it's been wonderful exceptthat my brain is so extremely full. My class has just declareditself the "most awesome class ever." So far, I cannot argue. Wehave some amazing people and have bonded very quickly. Today, infact, we all went to the bookshop and revived one another as we oneby one felt rather faint over the sticker shock of the texts. Youknow, in college, religion books were the cheapest of any major andI think this is how God pays us back.Meanwhile, I have one of the most unusual seminary course loadsever: Beginner's Arabic 1, Jesus and Mohammed, Christians andMuslims, Worship, and Pentateuch. I will be trying to test out ofChurch History and need to cram before September 10th. Wish I wouldhave discovered this sooner. Later, I can take advanced Luther,Paul, and Ethics, maybe advanced Prophets, and many more oddconfigurations. I am grateful not to have to think of those justright now, though.My 'present' roommate and I are getting along swimmingly. (Not sosure yet about 'absent' roomate, who has been so thus far bothphysically and relationally. I guess getting engaged does that topeople). Anyway, we acheived making supper the other night, and hada glass of wine to celebrate our urban domesticity. She is fromsouthwest Wisconsin and as such had a bottle of wine called 'BadgerBlush.' My cross-cultural education continues, and it wasdelicious.Speaking of cross-cultural education, today we had a workshop onhearing the diverse voices at the seminary. To my surprise, thefirst speaker was a conservative white man. He said that he wasplanning to vote for Bush in the next election, knew of no facultymembers who shared his views, and only four students out of thewhole student body. Wow. Aside from a gut sense of relief (thoughI'm no great supporter of Kerry, either), I thought it was actuallyquite good for him to identify and speak about that experience. Iknow I chose to come here over other seminaries precisely because itwas liberal, global, and ethnically diverse, and was overjoyed tosee how much of my class was just such. Incidentally, anotherstudent identified as the 'gay Norweigan man' and said that he roomswith the conservative and has not killed him yet. Yet anotherstudent got up and said he embodied the 'straight white guy' whofelt last year that because of his role of majority power insociety, had less or nothing constructive to contribute to thediscussion, but ultimately found his voice. The third speakerthat really caught my attention as unusual for a forum like this wasthe Masters of Divinity Diaconal Ministry student--there's only fouron campus, and are not really understood yet by the rest of thecommunity. Myself, I think it's a beautiful idea. I'm actuallylooking at changing over shortly. Another reason why my head isswimming and my course schedule is a little disjointed.I speak here about Iraq on the 14th over lunch to kick off the'Global Table Talks,' and my advisor would like me to speak at leasttwo other times this year on CPT and Israel/Palestine. Maybe I'lldo a joint fourth talk with a Presbyterian student who was also inArizona with me this summer.One of my classmates told me yesterday I was her new hero. Yikes.It's flattering, but I don't think I'm ready for that here. When doI get a hero? Being in Iraq is a real conversation-stopper, I'vediscovered. I haven't had anyone say anything that wasn't extremelypositive and supportive, but I do feel a little set apart. It'stempting in some ways for me to not mention it at all, to blend in,to not take the responsibility for speaking out and educating thatcomes with it. But, I think I've already figured out that I willstand out here, no matter what I do, and maybe that is not such abad thing. At least I've found community.We've started a women's Bible study which met for the first timelast night and includes both seminary students and wives-of. It'sreally good, and is also functioning a bit as a support group forus. One of the women talked about how coming here is like being aplant getting watered. I liked the image and went home and got mycrayons and drew a Le Anne-plant under the watering can. I havebeen realizing how in this past year of working in the desert, howlittle 'water' there really was.I am not sure if I mentioned earlier that I have had many fineopportunities to get lost in our building. The most excitingadventure was being locked in a stairwell for half an hour lastweekend. I didn't realize when I left the computer lab that theyclose off all but the main stairwell on the weekends for securitypurposes--there weren't any signs. So, once I got in, I went fromfloor to floor and ended up at the bottom in a glass box with a doorwhich had a sign on it saying "DO NOT EXIT or alarm will sound." Ithought to myself, 'how much more embarrassing do I want to makethis experience?' So I waited until a teenage girl walked by andthen waved to her frantically. She waved back and kept walking. SoI pounded on the door and that got her attention, then she wentaround upstairs and held the door open for me to escape. I thankedher profusely. She was one of the professors' kids.There are many extremely nice kids around here: three teen boyscarried a very bulky cabinet up to our third-floor apartment theother night and I fed them cake and ice cream afterwards. Then whenroomie returned, they bounded down and brought up the groceries fromher car two blocks away. Last night, we had three young neighborgirls in our apartment, one making chocolate chip cookies with usand the other two watching Disney movies. One of the younger girlsasked me which languages I spoke. I replied that I spoke Arabic,German, and a little Spanish. She replied, "I speak Zulu, and shespeaks Korean." At the time, the other girl was on the phone to herfather and I could see that for myself. All three breeze betweentheir mother languages and English. The two Zulu-speakers are fromSouth Africa and live just downstairs. The girl who asked me aboutlanguages, who is perhaps seven, also told me my room was verymessy. Hmm. Maybe tonight I'd better finish unpacking. At lunchtoday another student said his room was a disaster also. Since he'ssure he wants to get ordained, we suggested he hire a churchsecretary sooner rather than later.peace,Le Anne